33: How Everyone Should Be Wired to Eat — Robb Wolf

0:00take back your health now episode 24
0:04you’re listening to the take back your
0:07house now podcast the show that
0:09interviews the top doctors athletes
0:11trainers and entrepreneurs to help you
0:14find the holy grail of health now here’s
0:17your host dr. dan Margolin hi this is
0:22dr. dan Margolin with another segment of
0:25take back your help now where we pull
0:27out all the stops in search of helps
0:29holy grill that we are really excited
0:31today to have robble a former research
0:35biochemist and the New York Times
0:36bestselling author of the paleo solution
0:39the original human diet is a student of
0:43Professor Warren Cordain author of the
0:46Paleo diet
0:47rob has transformed the lives of
0:48hundreds of thousands of people around
0:50the world via his top-ranked itunes
0:53podcast book and seminars Rob welcome to
0:57the show sir
0:58good thinkstock with a bio like that I
1:00feel like I should be taller than five
1:02foot nine but thank you understood it is
1:05awesome it is also what you’re doing so
1:06just go to a little understanding like
1:09what first got you interested in the
1:12Paleo diet just go into that a little
1:13bit we know the interest was originally
1:16was just health and performance to
1:18general like I was a competitive our
1:21lifter competitive Thai boxer in my
1:23youth and I was raised in a household
1:27that both parents were pretty sick both
1:29of them smoke both of them ended up
1:31developing type 2 diabetes in the late
1:33thirties early forties and I just had
1:35kind of a sneaky suspicion that there
1:37was probably a better way to go about
1:39doing things and in that effort to
1:42figure things out i did a lot of dietary
1:44experimentation and one of the paths
1:47that I went down with a really high carb
1:49low fat kind of a vegetarian way of
1:52eating and for me and my physiology and
1:55maybe it is because um mainly caveman
1:57I’m not totally sure but it it running
2:00really didn’t work very well for me I
2:02ended up with ulcerative colitis and a
2:04lot of GI problems some very disordered
2:06blood lipids and it was kind of a moment
2:10of desperation that this idea of a
2:13Haley or an ancestral type diet kind of
2:15got on my radar this was back in
2:17nineteen eighty-eight when i was doing
2:18just kind of benchtop research related
2:21to lipid metabolism cancer in
2:25autoimmunity and so this idea got my my
2:28radar and i started poking around a
2:30little bit there was this newfangled
2:32search engine called google at that time
2:34and i put you know paleo diet into the
2:36search engine and I found a couple of
2:39folks like Loren Cordain and Arthur
2:41Devaney and it was just really off to
2:45the races from there and i implemented
2:47what was then kind of a low-carb paleo
2:50type diet and i gotta say within days
2:53the ulcerative colitis symptoms were
2:56completely resolved within a matter of
2:57weeks i had regained all the way that I
3:00had lost i was still eating like about
3:024,000 calories a day trying to maintain
3:04my weight but I had such terrible
3:06malabsorption that I was dead i walk
3:08around normally about a hundred
3:09seventy-five pounds reasonably fit and
3:11lean I would sound 230 pounds due to
3:14melt all my god what were you eating
3:16like a lot of bread or what we’ll find
3:18is like you know and that’s kind of a
3:20funny thing i went and checked out like
3:22the Georgia shallow macrobiotic
3:24institute and I was you know soaking and
3:26sprouting my grains and legumes and you
3:30know cooking them you know properly and
3:32write that is your bye-bye old you know
3:35accounts properly but is you know from
3:38my physiology again you know mainly
3:41northern European Scottish Swedish being
3:44the kind of Maine derivatives that
3:47approach just really did not work for me
3:50here or at least not at that point in my
3:53life and so this weekend my my nutrition
3:57was pretty profound at this
3:58at that point I was really thinking
4:00about a a career in medicine or
4:03potentially pursuing a research track
4:05but when I found this paleo diet concept
4:09the idea of going to medical school
4:11seemed really a you know turning left to
4:15turn right like i was going to spend
4:17eight years learning about disease and
4:19pathology and mainly within a
4:21the disease and pathology kind of
4:23framework when I really felt like at
4:25this this operating system that really
4:29thought about sleep food exercise the
4:32gut biome and RR greater you know kind
4:34of human community
4:36those were the pillars of Health and
4:37that’s what you need to focus on and it
4:39didn’t seem like the the doctors that I
4:42was shadowing didn’t seem like they had
4:44a whole lot of time to talk about that
4:45stuff you know and this was even before
4:47the medical system has shifted or slit
4:50as much as it has you know such that uh
4:53you know doctors have like five maybe
4:55ten minutes with a with a patient
4:56there’s really not much higher and
4:58deeper for deep vetting and so I did
5:00something kind of wacky I i/o happened
5:04to been one of the first people to find
5:06this thing called profit online back in
5:092000-2001 and a coat on there
5:12yeah I interested kelly starrett I think
5:14he was one of the founders or something
5:17of that as well really becoming quite a
5:19bit later but i think i actually had i
5:22co-founded the first and fourth crossfit
5:24affiliate gyms in the world i actually
5:26wrote the first affiliate inquiry email
5:29ever and so it in for the people that
5:32like CrossFit they think that’s kind of
5:34cool for the people that dislike
5:35CrossFit and I’m kind of the Antichrist
5:37but it’s about important in mind the
5:41broadcaster people like it so you’re
5:42fine
5:43ok perfect for you know was interesting
5:46of running a gym where you had this good
5:49exercise modality you had a really
5:51really powerful supportive community and
5:54I had this opportunity to you know talk
5:57to people about food and sleep and
6:00circadian rhythm we had a really huge
6:03impact on the people that we worked with
6:05him within about two years of opening
6:08the gym we were picked by what i meant
6:10health as one of the top 30 gyms in
6:14America so we we started really making
6:16some pretty good waves you know using
6:18this paleo diet or ancestral health
6:20approach which which was it just the
6:22food it was community and sleep and so
6:25do period and you know modulating stress
6:28levels and all that type of stuff so how
6:31did you know go
6:32going to that also first we’ll pay you
6:33what does that mean the word paleo
6:35itself is that reference and what was
6:37that reference you you know it’s a
6:39holdover from the research of
6:42anthropologists and archaeologists from
6:44the early nineteen hundreds for the most
6:47part these folks notice that these
6:50hunter-gatherer groups that they ate
6:53what we would call a paleo type diet
6:54which there’s not actually one flavor of
6:57that it’s very different depending on if
6:59you live near the Arctic Circle vs like
7:01the Amazon rainforest but it was
7:04basically you know wild-caught foods
7:06route shoots tubers fruits vegetables
7:09seasonal variation and whatnot but it
7:12was in an observation that these folks
7:15despite not having modern Western
7:18medical interventions these folks were
7:21pretty darn healthy like they seem to be
7:23largely devoid of cardiovascular disease
7:26and got very low rates of of cancer type
7:292 diabetes was largely unheard of until
7:32they started shifting and eating a a
7:35more westernized diet so the term paleo
7:38recipe refers to our Paleolithic
7:40ancestors which preceded the Neolithic
7:43which was the domestication of grains
7:46and and cereal crops animals kind of
7:49living option city-states and and all
7:52that type of stuff but you know it’s um
7:53it’s an important in and I think
7:56worthwhile point to make because some
7:57people have almost like a a rash like
8:01response just hearing the term paleo
8:03diet but they’re not really too sure you
8:05know where the term comes from it’s not
8:07something that any one person cooked up
8:09it was just a observation on the part of
8:12lots of our it
8:14archaeologists and anthropologists that
8:16are three westernized ancestors were
8:20pretty darn healthy again despite not
8:23having access to modern you know Western
8:26medical interventions and so there was a
8:28suggestion made by a physician boyd
8:32eaton back in 1986 he wrote a paper for
8:35the British Medical Journal which made
8:37the case that if we were able to take
8:38all the good things that we have about
8:40modern medicine but then look at health
8:43maintenance from the perspective of our
8:45Paleolithic ancestors that we might have
8:47something really powerful there we know
8:49it’s interesting you say that you know
8:51they were so healthy back and we can you
8:52speak with the medical professionals now
8:55and a lot of even patients you know the
8:57concept is that back then it was
8:59everybody was sick and they needed
9:00medicine and actually what the truth is
9:03when you do look back in there was not
9:04the hypertension and diabetes the heart
9:07attack all those things really are or
9:09more of the modern error
9:11am I correct that is absolutely and you
9:13know it’s it’s um it’s observational you
9:16know you can’t you can’t hundred percent
9:18hang your hat on it but I i think that
9:20it’s really really interesting you know
9:22and it’s a great place to at least start
9:24having a conversation around this topic
9:27you know if you can look at groups of
9:29folks who really don’t show the types of
9:32very expensive Western degenerative
9:35diseases that we were really quite
9:38afflicted by in that seem to be
9:40increasing at exponential rates so you
9:42know there’s at some point the the just
9:46basic medical costs around this story
9:48are really going to force folks to to
9:50reevaluate this the the way that we
9:53fundamentally tackle medicine like I
9:55don’t think we’re going to be able to
9:57magic bullet ourselves out of type 2
10:01diabetes neurodegenerative disease
10:03I i wrote a piece for a separate book
10:06that i’ve been working on it kind of
10:07made the case that the discovery of
10:11antibiotics may have so influenced
10:13medicine that we really believe that
10:15there was a magic bullet for everything
10:17because Brianna biotic era if you got a
10:20scratch on that thing became infected it
10:23was a pretty good chance you are either
10:24going to lose the the limb or you might
10:26die her and also people really don’t
10:29appreciate what a profound influence
10:32antibiotics were on modern medicine and
10:36in this was the time then when you know
10:39the term magic bullet was was claimed it
10:41was kind of that Walt Disney nineteen
10:43fifties you know period where it wasn’t
10:46you know science better the nature and
10:48they kind of forgot that science is
10:49actually a discovery of nature and so on
10:52you know we really thought that we were
10:54going to figure out some way to
10:56circumvent the the natural world and
10:59then it was right around this time that
11:00we really characterize the DNA double
11:02helix and so that was just thought that
11:05if we just understand their genetics
11:07will have this all figured out and then
11:08we had the human genome project and we
11:11made some discoveries but it’s been
11:13really lackluster in the way that it has
11:16influenced medicine like medicine really
11:17hasn’t changed even though we understand
11:20the human genome added a deep level and
11:22then we discovered epigenetics which is
11:25the way that these genes get turned on
11:26and off and that’s another layer to the
11:29onion but the way that you influence
11:31these things is kind of at the the
11:33macro-level sleep
11:35photo period food exercise community
11:38stress levels in the food systems are so
11:42complex you can’t try to manage them in
11:46a point-by-point fashion like you’ve
11:48really just got to figure out something
11:50that’s kind of a holistic macroscopic
11:52view and that’s the way that you’ve got
11:54to tackle this stuff if you want to you
11:56know stack the deck in your favor so I’m
11:59going to come back to that in just a
12:01second i ask you is very silly question
12:03to start to clear up so when you’re
12:06talking about a people died and you’re
12:07comparing it to like a Mediterranean
12:10diet is my understanding here is that
12:12you’re looking at a much more exterior
12:14view point and actually looking at all
12:16the other factors that would influence
12:18this individual versus let me just
12:20explain the difference to me a little
12:22bit because the difference between like
12:23a paleo in the Mediterranean type Diana
12:25Dors yeah yeah yeah I I mean they could
12:28end up being very very similar but
12:31generally you’re going to see in in the
12:33place in the Mediterranean diet where
12:35you would see grains legumes and dairy
12:38you would see more fruits vegetables and
12:41nuts basically would be the you know
12:44paleo diet kind of analogy but you would
12:47still see largely grass-fed meat while
12:50caught seafood seasonal fruits and
12:53vegetables things like olive oil and all
12:56the other are certainly good to go and
12:58this is one of the unfortunate
13:00developments within the Paleo diet
13:03concept is it kind of it was always at
13:06least in my mind it was always intended
13:08to be a template for a starting point
13:11and what it turned into was kind of
13:13religious doctrine where people spend
13:15more time asking is this paleo then
13:18asking is this a good option for me and
13:21all okay and I’m so with you know it a
13:24it needed something almost like the you
13:27know the Protestant Reformation or
13:29something like that you know I’m coming
13:31in and and you know really simplify this
13:35story because you yet you know people
13:37really kind of losing their minds
13:39because on the one hand you’re not
13:41supposed to eat legumes but yet green
13:43beans are ok but green beans or a lego
13:45maybe you know what I mean it just
13:46becomes a really onerous a set of rules
13:52to follow instead of it just being kind
13:54of a simple template that we might start
13:56a little bit conservative you know maybe
13:59we start with no grains no legs no dairy
14:01particularly if somebody has GI problems
14:03are in autoimmune disease or something
14:05like that but then once we get our shelf
14:08moving in a favorable direction we
14:09really should experiment with you know
14:12is broader variety of foods as we can
14:14and just kind of map what we do well
14:16with and what are the things that we
14:17know might do better to avoid while so
14:20this is really a very uh I guess
14:23personalized approach me when you’re
14:25well let me just step back for one
14:27second what I’m sure a lot of people
14:29want to know the difference between a
14:31wire to eat the new book and original
14:34paleo solution that you wrote in 2010
14:36with what is the difference between
14:38those two look at out of those to
14:40compare it will you do for one thing the
14:43wired to eat i had the benefit of six
14:46almost seven years of additional
14:48experience working with people and you
14:50know after the the first books been
14:52really successful like and I’m very very
14:54fortunate but under the success is just
14:57that folks would Bible can follow the
14:59program and get a lot of benefit a lot
15:03of results and then they would end up
15:04buying more books and giving it to
15:06friends and family and stuff like that
15:07and so you know there’s a there there
15:10was kind of a success breeds success
15:12from that perspective but they’re there
15:14were a couple of things that were
15:15problematic with the paleo concept and
15:18the 1i was just kind of talking about
15:20that people started
15:22really you know turning the paleo
15:24concept into kind of religious doctor
15:27and they weren’t really thinking things
15:28through because you could make a case
15:30that coffee isn’t paleo but when you
15:34look at the research on coffee it is
15:37really hard to find anything negative
15:40about coffee now you can drink too much
15:42it can disturb your sleep and all that
15:44type of stuff but we have both
15:46epidemiological studies and also some
15:48good human trials where coffee
15:51consumption tea consumption like it’s a
15:54net win but it’s not quote paleo you
15:56know so okay you know there’s a lot to
15:59be said about that and then you know
16:02there is out in the the broader world
16:05folks that have heard of this paleo diet
16:08concept like they literally they get
16:10kind of like an immune response like it
16:11gives them a rash
16:12they just don’t even want to think about
16:13it don’t want to talk about it but
16:16instead away i was thinking about that
16:18and I was also thinking about another
16:20you know what was the area that I saw
16:22folks are tripped up by this experience
16:27of trying to change their life trying to
16:29change their eating and there seemed to
16:31be a really consistent pattern that
16:33emerged and it was that people felt a
16:36lot of guilt around the the notion that
16:39it was hard to make these changes in the
16:42back of my head I was always thinking
16:43well it should be hard i mean we’re
16:46wired for a completely different way of
16:47living like to expect that you wouldn’t
16:51find like a plate of nachos followed by
16:54a big bowl of ice cream really enticing
16:57and you you know that would be enticing
16:58every day a week like that that’s silly
17:01to expect that wouldn’t be the case in
17:03which are silly to expected you know
17:06although pork loin and salad and
17:08asparagus is tasty it’s not as tasty is
17:11is nachos an ice cream you know I mean
17:13there’s the basic reality there so I saw
17:16a lot of people that were failing
17:18because they would get into the process
17:20and then they were kind of run aground
17:22because it was hard and they felt like
17:25it shouldn’t be hard and a a encountered
17:29of paper that was really amazing and I’m
17:31blanking on the exact
17:32the name of the paper but it was talking
17:35about brain evolution and the omnivore’s
17:37real dilemma and it just made this point
17:40that we are opportunistic omnivores that
17:43in our art our past and really any
17:45organism that doesn’t live in you know
17:48with the third the ease that we have
17:52within our modern world you know I our
17:54pets are kinda I guess the only other
17:56example but everything on the planet
17:58that moves that hunter-gatherers or
18:00forages it needs to get as much energy
18:03as possible
18:04burning as little as possible and in
18:07this is called optimal foraging
18:08strategies and she’s just baked in the
18:11cake it it’s simply economic you know i
18:14mean it is how you you check to see if
18:16your business is with you know
18:18functioning there are sharks are
18:19generating more than what you’re
18:21spending in any organism that
18:23consistently spends more than it gets
18:26its gonna die so on so we are
18:29fundamentally genetically wired to eat
18:32more and move less but what are the
18:35recommendations that are made from the
18:37medical establishment particularly
18:38dietitians to solve your weight problems
18:41all you need to do is eat less and move
18:44more the track is diametrically opposed
18:47to our are fundamental genetic wiring
18:49and this is why that that line of
18:52reasoning fails and it sets people up
18:54for failure because they feel like man
18:56if I was just better i was just a a
18:58better person if I didn’t have this
19:00moral failing and maybe I would be able
19:02to you know affect these changes but the
19:05the fundamental story is that we are
19:08wired for a different way of living and
19:10you’ve got to figure out nutritional
19:13strategies such that the food that you
19:15ve are satisfying enough that you you
19:18really don’t you know go hold up a mini
19:21Martin in eat everything in the snack
19:23aisle but you know but it’s got to be
19:26livable over the long haul and a lot of
19:30people take these losses and these small
19:33loss and they just give up the diet that
19:34point there had mcdonalds absolutely you
19:37know there is it in i actually get into
19:39the topic of cheating in the book and I
19:42think I’ve got a little bit of a
19:44different angle on that I soon as
19:48someone asked me like how when can I
19:50cheat or you know what do you think
19:53about cheat meals and stuff like that
19:54like my shackles just go up immediately
19:56because I’m like okay where were in the
19:59thick of it with this page and a so I I
20:03wasn’t entirely sure why this got my my
20:06goat every time i heard it was one thing
20:09was with consistent with the person who
20:12asked that question was going to be a
20:13pain in the backside like there will do
20:14is just guaranteed guaranteed you know
20:17that I’m gonna happen with them so that
20:19you know one day I actually sat down
20:21like with the etymology of the word
20:24cheat you know like what’s the root word
20:27and what does it really mean and the
20:29word cheat if you look it up and get
20:31like a Webster’s dictionary kind of
20:33definition it’s basically to obtain an
20:36unfair advantage
20:38interesting so if you’re supposed to be
20:42eating a particular way whether tailee
20:45or beginner macrobiotic already know
20:47pick your pick your flavor but then if
20:49you say well I cheated on this diet and
20:52by cheated it usually means that we some
20:54sort of junk food
20:56where’s the unfair advantage there is no
20:58unfair advantage like that you didn’t
21:01know you can cheat on a relationship you
21:03can cheat on your taxes you cheatin you
21:06know golf
21:07there’s no cheating on food there’s
21:08consequences to food that’s it
21:11alpha omega done and if somebody is
21:13going on and on about you know cheat
21:16meals and can you cheat on food then
21:17we’ve got a fundamental problem that’s
21:19really existing on a psychological level
21:21and ok people need to understand you
21:24include you have consequences to the
21:27food that you eat
21:28that’s it and so it is again is just a
21:31baseline if people are focusing on
21:33whether or not they’re cheating on their
21:35diet then were in a psychological place
21:38that we are highly unlikely to succeed
21:40but if we get to a spot where lake
21:43ok I can eat whatever I want but I’m
21:45choosing to eat from category A for the
21:47most part and really avoid categories b
21:50c and d because I understand what the
21:52what the downside is until we make an
21:54informed choice in the
21:56the challenge in all this stuff is that
21:58are our brains are wired up in a way
22:01that are logical forebrain what we do
22:03all this rational processing is quite
22:06separate from the hedonic centers of our
22:09ancient brain where sex and food and
22:12survival are all processed and so that
22:16the challenge though is it you know
22:18taking that understanding but being able
22:20to push it into that emotive part of the
22:23brain and really make that part stick
22:25and that’s where is some things like 30
22:28day reset and and stuff that can help
22:30you get a handle on your neuro
22:32regulation of appetite that can help you
22:36to appreciate simpler meals though that
22:39that’s the way that you can rewire your
22:40appetite and have a higher likelihood of
22:43success but you know it again that down
22:46that notion of cheating is really one of
22:49those wacky like red flags and if I see
22:52somebody talking about that I know that
22:53we’ve got a live one its it has to be
22:55some work
22:56yeah but you also find I’ve got to
22:57imagine that you know people when i was
23:00younger right I could eat anything I
23:01work out all the time I was not a
23:03problem as I’ve gotten older you know my
23:05guts gotten bigger
23:06I’m more interested now do you find that
23:09people wait until they have some
23:11elements or there’s certain things that
23:13drives them to you that you’re getting
23:16people that maybe aren’t quite as
23:17healthier
23:18what is that the normal person reading
23:20your book coming to for advice are they
23:22healthy and young or they’ll get older
23:24they’re gonna go into some difficulties
23:25you know why I had two brackets of
23:28people that have followed my work and
23:29the one group is you know is composed of
23:32folks that were largely forgotten or
23:36ignored by medicine and these are the
23:38people that just had years of health
23:41problems that nobody could really figure
23:43out maybe it was related to gut maybe it
23:46was related to autoimmunity there seems
23:48to be systemic inflammation but nothing
23:51fit into those perfect like a cb10
23:54diagnostic criteria and so the person
23:56just kind of you know got kicked along
23:58and when they did something that looked
24:02like a paleo diet or an autoimmune paleo
24:04type approach it was shocking the
24:07results of these people guys
24:09and you know again like they they would
24:11because of social media the timing of
24:13all the stuff is interesting people were
24:15able to blog and people were able to
24:16share experiences on social media and
24:19the cool thing about nutritional
24:21interventions like you can talk to
24:23people about religion or political
24:25affiliations with religion you’ve gotta
24:28die before you figure out whether or not
24:29the person was right or wrong not
24:31political affiliations you know you kind
24:34of have to watch the the time course of
24:36a Empire and see you know the socialism
24:39worker does you no good journalism work
24:41or whatever sir but with a diet it’s 30
24:44days like if you can just just muscle
24:46through 30 days it’s kind of like trying
24:48on a sweater like are you gonna do you
24:50like how it fits is it you know work
24:53that you need to talk i’m going to back
24:54you up totally in my office in treatment
24:56room has a television but they’re all
24:58they’re all on the same circuit right so
25:00if we put on CNN or Fox there’s always
25:03somebody complaining but if we put on
25:05the Food Channel nobody complaints they
25:07just lay there and stare at they loved
25:09it so it is fluent seems to be that
25:11thing that you could discuss with
25:12anybody and it just knows no boundaries
25:14so i really thank you up on that there’s
25:17some at least potential for getting the
25:21person to try it you know Duncan you can
25:23be if you may appeal to their logical
25:26sense and like a man you know you can do
25:28anything for 30 days to give it a shot
25:30and so they give it a shot
25:32you might even guilt people little bit
25:34it’s like a your wife did it for 30 days
25:35later and let you know when it after
25:39that 30-day period folks generally look
25:41feel and perform better if they did
25:43bloodwork before and afterwards that the
25:45no blood lipids look better their
25:47inflammatory markers look better and
25:49then the person can do something really
25:51crazy and that’s just sit back and look
25:53at what they did and ask themselves the
25:56question is the you know the reward
25:58worth the cost you are clearly not
26:01eating the junk food that we all would
26:03like to eat
26:04there’s some costs associated with that
26:06in the same time I’m not here to
26:08proselytize two people to say that they
26:11should or shouldn’t do one thing over
26:12the other but I really you know kind of
26:14my life’s mission is just to let people
26:16know that they’ve got choices if I like
26:19your protest really and
26:20during the people who brought
26:21problematic reading why aren’t you
26:23talking length about personalized
26:25nutrition is this what you’re talking
26:27about what is that and why is that
26:28important this when you go into a little
26:30bit as well yeah you know the
26:31personalized nutrition is is interesting
26:34because on the one hand we have to have
26:36simple stories to try to help people
26:39like if I roll in and somebody you know
26:42they haven’t they believe the real life
26:45like they have a social life and they
26:47don’t think about nutritional
26:48biochemistry collectively the right
26:50there is not a geek and god bless him
26:52for for you know not being a geek but if
26:55they’ve got some health problems are
26:57they want to lose some weight
26:58I’ve got to get them going somehow and
27:00so on the blend hand having a really
27:02simple story to tell whether that paleo
27:05or vegan or high-carb low-fat or high
27:09fat low carb these things are pretty
27:11easy story that give people lane lines
27:15it’s kind of like when you take kids
27:16bowling and they have the kid you know
27:18get bumper lanes that pop up so the ball
27:20can’t go in the gutter like Sarah sure
27:22what you’re doing you know and that
27:24works for a certain cross-section of
27:26folks but inevitably the recommendation
27:29that you make 200 people there’s going
27:32to be some percentage of people that
27:33that recommendation fits and some
27:35percentage that it really doesn’t mean
27:37that it needs some tweaking and in
27:39general we can make this broad statement
27:42is folks will benefit from eating
27:44largely whole unprocessed food like that
27:47that’s a pretty safe spot to start but
27:51then there’s a lot of detail and nuance
27:52in that like I genetically when I had my
27:5523andme testing done based off my
27:59genetics I’m like three hundred percent
28:01more likely than the average person to
28:03develop type 2 diabetes and
28:05internationally both my both of my
28:07parents develop type 2 diabetes in their
28:10thirties and forties and I’ve noticed
28:12hood over the course of time that if I
28:14eat too many carbs whether it’s sweet
28:16potatoes or fruit or rice or what have
28:19you
28:19um I gained body fat my blood lipids go
28:22sideways and I feel pretty terrible and
28:24you know i have poor blood sugar control
28:26and again like I’m out of that Northern
28:29European stock that was hunter-gatherers
28:32not very long ago like agriculture
28:34arrived in these areas pretty pretty
28:36late in the game the only people that
28:38you would find maybe even more recent
28:40would be Native Americans and we see you
28:42know very very high rates of type 2
28:44diabetes and Native Americans and so you
28:48know there’s some customization that
28:49needs to happen there and so what I try
28:51to do with wired to eat is start folks
28:55on a general pass and we use a 30-day
28:57reset to do that where it’s it’s
28:59basically an anti-inflammatory diet we
29:02get people rewiring the neuro regulation
29:04of appetite they start you know healing
29:07inflammation they healed her gut all if
29:09their sleep and proves and then at the
29:11end of that process we do what’s called
29:13a seven-day carb test where we monitor
29:16our blood sugars and we start testing
29:18different carbohydrate sources and then
29:20based off that were able to get a really
29:22concrete sense of both on a objective
29:25level on the subjective level like how
29:27do you feel after that 50 gram bowl of
29:30rice
29:31what is how it should look like after
29:33that 50 grand bowl bowl of rice and it’s
29:35fascinating so my wife is quite a bit
29:38smaller than I am you know let’s let’s
29:41body weight and everything so you could
29:42make an argument that she should be less
29:45capable of dealing with carbohydrates
29:47than i am but i recently did an
29:49experiment where I was wearing a
29:51continuous blood glucose monitor
29:52basically samples your blood glucose
29:54once a minute for the the duration of
29:56the the test and we ate the same amount
29:59of carbohydrates from rice and it was 50
30:03grams of carbs and it’s basically like a
30:05cup and a quarter of white race and my
30:07blood sugar hit 178 is sky-high I don’t
30:13like absolute hell
30:15it’s gonna really help for about two
30:18days after that
30:19now my wife her blood you’re a think got
30:22to like 128 1 130 for something like
30:25that so you know 40 50 points lower than
30:28what mine was but she’s smaller than I
30:31am she has less muscle mass than i do
30:33but her insulin sensitivity and her
30:35ability to store glucose is dramatically
30:39better than mine was just kind of absurd
30:41that like sheet
30:43and a lowest card paleo but she cheated
30:45way more sweet potatoes and I do more
30:47yams more yuka more through and she does
30:50find on that it but if I hate the way
30:52that she did I would have some problems
30:55and I’ve seen that both on the
30:56subjective level where it’s kinda like
30:58how i feel after meals right ok bad and
31:01the objective level where attempted
31:03blood glucose and so that’s this this
31:05opportunity and this promise of
31:07personalized nutrition where we can go
31:09beyond the one-size-fits-all diets like
31:11we’ve got to have an orienting spot to
31:14start people but then we can’t let them
31:16dig in like a tick in turn that starting
31:19place into a religious doctor in it like
31:21this is the only thing that works you
31:23know
31:23do you think people subjectively are
31:26going to be drawn to foods that they
31:27need and others are there if I’m being
31:30drawn toward james morrison because I’m
31:32gonna need whatever in there and I can
31:34tolerate better is that is a natural
31:36kind of an inclination towards that are
31:38not really like when you compare
31:40subjected to objective why sense of that
31:43is it the only kind of micronutrient
31:45that we can taste is salt sodium and we
31:49actively seek out sodium most organisms
31:52out the environment seek out sodium
31:54others some really amazing video of Emma
31:56go to Italy that climb the edge of my
32:01seat and yes and they make the salt
32:03crystals other and is totally crazy so
32:05my understanding of this is the in
32:07general what what we are doing is we are
32:11definitely seeking out certain palette
32:13and flavor profiles and it’s a
32:15salty-sweet mommy bitter but baking the
32:21cake if we are eating whole unprocessed
32:23foods historically your your brain just
32:26needed to have um we think about this
32:29less like calories in calories out and
32:32more about information processing when
32:35you eat different foods protein carbs
32:36fat it you know they have different
32:38phytonutrients the turn genes on and off
32:42in different ways we’re getting a very
32:44different metabolic response from am
32:47with some grass-fed butter on it then we
32:50do from a plate of say like just plain
32:52white rice or or just kind of denuded
32:55white bread or so
32:56ok so you know baking the cake
32:58historically if you got a really nice
33:02mix of flavor profiles from whole
33:04unprocessed processed foods just baking
33:07that cake you ended up getting all the
33:10vital nutrients that you needed but what
33:12happens today because we are mostly
33:15foods are stripped of these vital
33:18nutrients in the processing kind of a
33:21situation then you end up seeking out
33:25those flavors but in this is where you
33:28know it’s pretty well understood that
33:29like if people are protein deficient
33:31they will tend to eat more and more and
33:33more food trying to meet a pariah
33:36society level this is a civil manner
33:38that would be sure
33:40yeah no I understand well relevant
33:42ketosis and fasten these are pretty hot
33:44topics in your book why do you have a
33:47chapter devoted to this can talk to tell
33:50folks about the benefit and potential
33:52pitfalls of fasting ketosis like you
33:55know i’m a huge fan of these modalities
33:57I’ve done a lot of work with the Naval
34:00Special Warfare resiliency committee
34:02have gone and spoken to the field teams
34:04in the special boat teams for a number
34:06of years and it’s a huge honor to do
34:08that one of the big topics that I talked
34:10about his traumatic brain injury and
34:12there’s a whole host of
34:13neurodegenerative diseases and also add
34:17a physical trauma traumatic brain injury
34:19that seem to respond remarkably well to
34:22ketogenic diets and fasting and and what
34:24happens in fasting and or a ketogenic
34:27diet once we drop carbohydrate intake
34:30below a certain threshold we can really
34:33produce or release enough glucose to run
34:36the brain
34:37we’ve got lots of body fat even if we’re
34:39reasonably lean folks but body fat
34:42doesn’t move around the body actually
34:43that well and it particularly is is pork
34:47crossing the blood-brain barrier and so
34:48do we start metabolising lots of fat but
34:53when we have a lack of carbohydrate or
34:55or protein kicking get turned into
34:57carbohydrate we start producing these
34:59things called ketone bodies and the
35:01ketone bodies are interesting and that
35:03the water soluble so they can head
35:05throughout the whole body particularly a
35:07passing through the blood-brain barrier
35:09and they carry the energetic kind of
35:12weight that you would see from fat but
35:14they are portable the way that a glucose
35:17molecule it and so it provides an
35:19alternative fuel source for the brain
35:21and someone who is fasted for two days
35:25three days they’re going to have some
35:26decently low blood glucose levels and
35:29reasonably high blood ketone levels and
35:32this is a completely normal state of
35:34affairs there’s nothing dangerous with
35:36this but we’re medical the the medical
35:40scene is kind of gone sideways on this
35:42story is there’s a condition called
35:44ketoacidosis which typically occurs in
35:47type 1 diabetics that are poorly
35:49managing the blood glucose levels and
35:51they become effectively insulin
35:53resistant to the point that they can’t
35:56really get eco-center their cells so
35:58they start producing huge amounts of
36:00ketones and then the ketones rise to
36:03really really very high levels much
36:06higher than what you would see in a a
36:07starvation ketosis state and allen cause
36:11seizures and death so there’s a
36:13legitimate situation where you want you
36:16want to be concerned about ketoacidosis
36:18but what happened is the physicians and
36:21healthcare providers forgot their
36:23biochemistry and forgot that fast in
36:26ketosis or nutritional ketosis which can
36:29be brought about by eating a moderate
36:31protein low carb high fat diet these are
36:33completely different state than
36:35ketoacidosis and there’s the analogy
36:38there is that a diabetic is someone who
36:41has uncontrolled or or poorly controlled
36:44levels of blood glucose and that can
36:46become injurious someone in Aikido
36:48acidotic state is an individual with you
36:52know unhealthful levels of of the ketone
36:55bodies both of those are pathological
36:57states both of those can be mitigated by
37:00a more appropriate dietary approach sure
37:03and it’s a benefit of like being a cake
37:06and a kid ketosis would be i’m just
37:08starting that cancer design girl and
37:10those kind of is that true i mean other
37:12things like that there’s some cancers
37:14which seem to be but political the
37:18endothelial drug derived from a
37:21neurological development and these are
37:22breasts
37:23colon prostate glioblastoma astrocyte
37:25brain tumors they appear to respond
37:28pretty favorably to a low carb low
37:31glucose environment there are certain
37:33types of cancers the only run off
37:36glucose and if you can starve them of
37:38glucose there’s some suggestion that
37:40that may as a singular treatment
37:43modality may offer some benefit or if
37:46you were to use conventional therapies
37:48like Tito and rate a chemo and radiation
37:50plus a ketogenic diet those ketone
37:53bodies are actually making the cancer
37:55unstable because it doesn’t have enough
37:58energy you know substrate to to keep it
38:00going and then you hit it with the chemo
38:02and radiation in the end so it could
38:04make the the conventional therapies more
38:07effective supplies are other types of
38:10cancers like malignant melanoma which
38:13doesn’t appear to benefit specifically
38:15from the ketogenic diet intervention
38:19like a ketosis doesn’t seem to benefit
38:22that type of cancer specifically but
38:24interestingly the ketogenic state
38:26actually makes our normal cells more
38:29resilient against things like chemo and
38:31radiation so there’s a potential bit
38:33even though it may not
38:35you know in certain situations
38:36chemoradiation plus keto diet may
38:39directly influenced the the you know the
38:42ability to clear particular types of
38:44cancer in other situations that may just
38:47be that allows the individual to
38:48tolerate the chemo and radiation better
38:50therefore hopefully making those
38:52treatment modalities more applications
38:55were just in the very beginnings of
38:58studying this type of stuff but the the
39:02title of that chapter is hammers drills
39:05in ketosis the one tool your doctor will
39:07never use and i used the analogy that
39:10you know until my dad was a contractor
39:13and although there would be all kinds of
39:15debates and pissing matches about you
39:17know you should do this or you should do
39:18that i noticed that there were some
39:20broad categories like nobody argued
39:23about whether or not you should use a
39:24bandsaw when the screwdriver with the
39:27appropriate tool you know they’re just
39:28right
39:30but it’s interesting with in nutritional
39:32sciences and medicine there’s huge drama
39:35around whether you should eat a higher
39:37carb diet or a low-carb diet these
39:39things are just tools you know there’s
39:41there’s a plausible reasons for either
39:45approach but there’s just this drama and
39:48this some you know lack of really
39:50understanding and really just
39:51recognizing that these things are tools
39:53and so I go in pretty deep on ketosis
39:56and fasting explain what they are what
39:58the potential benefits are for some
40:00people who are trying to lose
40:02significant significant amount of body
40:04weight they may have some damage or
40:06dysregulation to the hypothalamus that
40:09the only thing that’s going to work is a
40:11ketogenic diet because it it appears to
40:13offer some neuroprotective effects and
40:15so some people have played with
40:17everything they can imagine diet airily
40:19and they don’t succeed until they use a
40:22ketogenic approach now there are other
40:24people who might be crossfitters again
40:27or or you know hard-charging athletes
40:29and they want to lean out a little bit
40:31and they think that a ketogenic diet
40:33would be great because it just saw a
40:35story where somebody lost 200 pounds on
40:37the ketogenic diets losing the last five
40:39pounds that they want to lose you know
40:41should be easy but for these folks
40:43they’re already lean they’re already
40:45insulin sensitive and their training
40:47it’s such a high work capacity that a
40:50ketogenic diet may not be appropriate
40:52for them they might only be more
40:53appropriate for something else so in
40:56with regards to fasting a lot of people
40:58are playing around with things like time
41:00restricted feeding or intermittent
41:01fasting I think there’s huge potential
41:04benefit there but the people that I’d
41:07seen who are willing to do intermittent
41:09fasting are the same folks that do
41:12CrossFit six days a week they eat six
41:14grams of carbs a month and like they’re
41:17just crazy that elections are like yeah
41:20you know they should be committed yeah
41:22and you know the the tight be on
41:27computer programmer who is laid-back and
41:29mellow the really sedentary that person
41:33would probably do great with the time
41:35restricted feeding which is is what I
41:37recommended the book maybe you do dinner
41:39around five or six pm and then you don’t
41:41make breakfast happen until like 10
41:43penny a.m. or noon and so you’re going
41:46to constrict period of time that you eat
41:48which typically means you’re going to
41:49reduce the total caloric load but
41:52there’s also some benefits of above and
41:54beyond that but I do way I think a
41:56pretty good job of describing what these
41:59things are but then also why you would
42:01want to do and why you might not want to
42:03do them but they are clearly really
42:05great tools the same way that you know
42:07nobody would argue that a screwdriver or
42:09a pair of pliers aren’t great tools but
42:11you certainly don’t want to use the
42:12wrong one for the wrong job
42:14no absolutely right the other the whole
42:16point of our of orchestral in search of
42:19the holy grail of Health power to pose a
42:21question to what is the holy grail of
42:23helpful would you want your answer below
42:25me and that that grill and my mind would
42:27be made of what i call the four pillars
42:29of health which would be sleep food
42:32movement and community and within the
42:35sleep part I expand that and talk about
42:38photo period because it’s not just how
42:40much sleep we get but actually what time
42:42we go to bed what time we wake up how
42:44much light we get on our person and in
42:47our eyes during the day on the types and
42:50amounts of light that we get in our eyes
42:52and on our person at night like when the
42:53Sun Goes Down we should really a dark
42:56environment yeah and you know the the
42:57circadian rhythm piece of all this is
43:00really fascinating and it’s pretty clear
43:03that the person that gets sleep safe
43:08from like 1010 am 26 and is very very
43:12different than the results of the person
43:15who gets leap from midnight to 8am even
43:17though it’s the same amount of rack time
43:20both of those people have a very
43:21different experience of their photo
43:24period and that will influence their
43:26circadian rhythm and the depth of their
43:28sleep and that influences insulin
43:30sensitivity and so even though i spend
43:32an inordinate amount of time talking
43:34about food in the book I could really
43:36make an argument that the sleep and
43:38photo period piece is the most important
43:41part of its a just profoundly important
43:46but then you know clearly getting a our
43:48nutrition dialed-in better is super
43:51important movement or exercise most
43:55people hate exercise everybody loves
43:57moving so you know I call it clipped
43:59movement and the most important
44:00structures there is you find something
44:03that you like that you’re going to keep
44:05going again and again and again I i like
44:08when people do some resistance training
44:10I like people doing a little bit of
44:12sprint interval stuff I think it’s
44:13really good for metabolism i think it’s
44:15a good anti-aging approach but if you
44:17just hate the gym and you would rather
44:19hike and like throw rocks in your
44:22backyard than I can throw rocks in your
44:24backyard that’s way more important that
44:25you just literally share doing so at
44:27least you could do is simply joyce and i
44:29know i love it i love it but i decided
44:31to what I can talk to you for like 12
44:32hours and you are amazing i just a great
44:34great interview with it is your one
44:36final question i’m gonna ask you just
44:37help people could get in touch with you
44:39but you have an interesting take on the
44:40word hypochondria can you just talk to
44:42that a little bit with ya
44:44so again like I i like to be poking
44:48around in the history of words and I was
44:51really mad so some people become kind of
44:55marginally famous in this fitness realm
44:58you know for different things some
44:59people have buns of steel somebody have
45:01some people have rock hard abs my claim
45:04to fame is I know a lot about Putin so i
45:08think it was about the gunshot no
45:10yeah because digesting food just the
45:14interview right now let’s Thank You
45:16lieutenant college student like so so
45:19that gets me thinking about the gut a
45:21lot and so I think about the gut and its
45:23relationship to get you to our overall
45:25health and what night and so I was
45:27country it when this popped into my head
45:29but I was thinking about the word
45:31hypochondria because i was thinking
45:33about so many of the things that go
45:36along the the hypochondria individual
45:39who is this person or the person that
45:41thinks are always sick and they will
45:43always got a health problem and sort of
45:46really doing on that it when you look at
45:49the Latin derivative hypo means below
45:51con dria means cartilage or ribs but
45:56really if you literally look below the
45:58ribs
45:59it’s the guy alright and so yeah you
46:03know Hippocrates made the the point that
46:05all disease starts in the guy and he’s
46:07generally accepted as being kind of the
46:09Father
46:10you know Western medical thought and
46:12what not sure
46:14and so I i started poking around I still
46:15haven’t come to a full conclusion on
46:17this but I was trying to figure out did
46:18the hypochondriac individual where they
46:22called that because you know all of
46:24these weird symptoms that nobody could
46:26pin down this is my mom this was the
46:28description I i gave us my mom here at
46:30the beginning
46:32um you know easy all going on the gut
46:35and you know is it the reason why it’s
46:38so hard to pin this stuff down and get a
46:40definitive answers that’s a complex
46:42process and and they don’t you know
46:44oftentimes fall into a perfect category
46:47so I look at that
46:48hypochondria story in a very different
46:51way you know the the hypochondriac
46:54I think oftentimes they have some really
46:57complex health issues going on that are
47:00likely gut derivative or at least have
47:02some gut issues but they’re not severe
47:05enough that it’s going to push them into
47:07a definitive diagnosis of like
47:09autoimmunity or irritable bowel syndrome
47:11or something like that so they’re
47:13feeling something is not right and
47:15they’re expressing that would best they
47:16can and people are starting to say like
47:18you’re crazy not get offerings at that
47:20like almost the dynamics of it
47:22exactly ya know that well my hopeful i
47:26hope that has some impact on the greater
47:28story of medicine and then I’m still
47:30trying to figure out like why the hot
47:32hypochondriac was called you know the
47:36Latin derivatives on below the ribs like
47:38why why did that get a scratch that
47:40because it was some insight recognizing
47:44that there was something going on in the
47:45gut with these people
47:47you know it’s fascinating just doing
47:48these the podcast is broken so many
47:51people and I just for me it’s changed my
47:54life just because learning I I never
47:55even attributed anything to the gut and
47:58so far you include exposing the four
48:00experts that are bringing it right back
48:02to the same thing so i have properties
48:04sounds like he was right on the many
48:06wait right on the money way back when
48:09and how would people find out about you
48:11how they find out about your book wire
48:13to eat how they do that should boost
48:15everything is available on Robins com
48:19wire de is available for pre-order
48:23everywhere books are sold it will be
48:24available in stores and will shift from
48:26barnes & noble amazon and all those
48:29places March 21st robble thank you sir
48:33for joining us it was a great podcast
48:35really appreciated doc huge honor being
48:37on thank you
48:40this episode is sponsored by New Jersey
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49:03for listening
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